00:00
You are 100% responsible for your career, and if you are not in command of it and understanding the decisions you are making with greater intention about how this decision sets you up for the next one after it, you're going to be left behind in the career game pretty quickly. Welcome to the ownership game. Gary Montalbo what would it take to get into the driver's seat of your life and leave your mark? The ownership game starts now.
00:44
Navigating your career can be challenging in the best of days, but the challenge can be particularly daunting if you find yourself in the middle of your career overnight. Your colleagues seem to be half your age and speak another language. The AI revolution is changing the game faster than you can keep track of it. And more likely than not, your priorities have just changed. You may have a family now, you may have aging parents, or you may just be ready for a new challenge and are considering a career change altogether. To help unpack all this, I invited career coach John Norell to the show. He specializes in working with professionals who are in mid career and are navigating these very same challenges. Whether you're mid career or not, be sure to grab a pen and paper because he's dropping a ton of practical advice to help you navigate your next career move.
01:44
So, John, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Why don't we start with just tell our listeners a little bit about you. Give them some background so they understand why you're a subject matter expert in this topic.
01:56
Well, Gary, thank you so much and I'm honored to spend some time with you and your listeners today. So what I want your listeners and you to know is that after a 25 year career in education, where I started out as a middle school mathematics teacher in northern New Jersey, next to the Real Housewives, completely different topic. I made a huge career pivot, and I made that pivot in part because of a personal relationship. I was in a long distance relationship. My spouse works in Washington, DC and his job was really not one where it was really able for him to kind of move. So I was like, look, I'll come to Washington, DC if I can get a job. And I left a wonderful teaching job in a tenured position in a great school district in northern New Jersey to go manage 21 instructional coaches across 13 middle schools. For the District of Columbia public schools, it was like two completely different worlds.
02:59
And hands down, Gary, it was the best career move I could have made. But I made it at mid career and that job set me up for several other advancements and positions where a little over seven years ago, I left my job as a training and staffing director at an educational nonprofit to open my coaching practice full time. And today I specifically help mid career professionals who feel stuck, undervalued and underutilized in their jobs to show up and find one that they're going to love or learn to love the job they have. And I am having the absolute best time in my career right now, getting to do what I get to do.
03:39
I love it. It's interesting because I think that I've been fortunate that I haven't had to look for work too many times in my life. Before this, I was an art director and I went to the School of Visual Arts, so I had enough relationships that I often got jobs easily. The few times that I've been like, in that job search, the thing that really stands out is the vulnerability that you often experience in that moment. There's like, I don't want to say a helplessness, but that you're trying to achieve the thing that's kind of out of your hand sometimes. And it's up to other people to give you a job. So I love the idea of people being able to have support during this process because it can be really vulnerable. Especially, I think when you're towards the middle of your career as you're talking about, sometimes you don't, you know, you might feel, it's interesting, right? Because you have all these youngins coming in and you're kind of still in the game.
04:44
You're not out of the game, but the things are changing and you're thinking about your future. You're probably thinking about retirement coming up. And so you're in this transition point, right? There's a lot going on for you in that. So I love that this is an area that you focus on and support people. So I'm excited to share a lot of your wisdom with viewers because I can relate. I can really relate.
05:07
Yeah, sure. Well, the interesting part about what you just said too, though, is that, like, when we graduate, whether it be from high school or college, what's our primary focus to get a job? We just want to get out there and work. And so what works for us when we're in our late teens or our early twenties in terms of getting that first job and gainfully being employed, things change as we get more experienced. And what we've seen, especially over the last few years, incredibly because of the pandemic, is we've seen how we live and we work very differently and how some companies have adapted to that with tremendous grace and relative ease, and others who are still struggling to figure out what the balance is for, how to support their talent and how they get work done and serve the people they do in their organizations. And if someone at mid career is sitting here today going, I think it might be time for me to find a new job, the game has absolutely changed, and what worked for you in your twenties will not work for you right now in your late thirties and forties and even early fifties.
06:21
Wow. What I imagine there's also, because the interesting thing about it is I feel like several decades ago, people used, it was very common for people to stick to one lane for their entire career, perhaps, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I mean, I, we both have to share it. Have. We've had several career changes in our lifetimes. Right. And I think that is the most common thing, which makes this all the more difficult now, because now you're, there's a reinvention that needs to happen as well. I mean, it would probably have to happen either way, whether you stay in that lane or not.
06:56
But if you are looking to make that change, there's a reinvention that needs to happen, which seems even scarier.
07:02
Right. And for our parents and even our grandparents, the thought of switching jobs and being a quote unquote job Hopper was something that was frowned upon because the mindset was you needed to be organizationally loyal. Well, all that went away a number of years ago, and we saw younger professionals, especially in the early two thousands, that were making huge jumps, and they were leveling up positions and leveling up compensation packages and getting huge raises and bonuses, and they were staying maybe a year or two before making their next move. And that was what the market was. And so they weren't being organizationally loyal. They were doing what we would advocate for anybody to do, which is, you are 100% responsible for your career, and if you are not in command of it and understanding the decisions you are making with greater intention about how this decision sets you up for the next one after it, you're going to be left behind in the career game pretty quickly.
08:12
Yeah. So what are some of the common conditions that you are noticing when people come to you? Like, what's the, what's happening with them?
08:25
The biggest pain point, Gary, is that the people whom I help do not want to be stuck. And in that fear about being stuck, they also fear about settling. So when I ask them what stuck means, what they often tell me is that they're stuck organizationally. So there's no place for them to move up on the chart, either because there's not a position available for them to be promoted into or the company isn't willing to create a position for them. They also define stuck as their mindset about having to leverage their talents and expertise to find a new job outside of their current organization. Because they think, and we'll put that in air quotes, they think that, you know, there's all these things that they need to do, and their brain very quickly gets overwhelmed with. I have to figure out how to update my resume and get that through the applicant tracking system. I have to optimize my LinkedIn profile, and I haven't done a doggone thing with that in the last five years of my employment.
09:31
I have to network because I'm told I'm supposed to network, and then I got to figure out how to interview. All while they're normally, they're typically, like, raising their family with small kids, and some of them are also taking care of their aging parents, so their time is limited. So when our brains get overwhelmed and we think we can't do it, one of the shifts is to help them find ways where they are capable. And one of the things that I excel at is helping my clients build what I call a mid career gps, which is very systematically and strategically doing one thing at a time to get them from point a to point b so they're no longer feeling stuck and they're never going to settle for anything in their career.
10:16
I love that. And so what are some of the, I guess if somebody's finding themselves in that situation other than obviously contacting you and getting some help, what are some of the things that they can start doing to figure out their next moves?
10:32
The biggest thing? Yeah, so I love that question. And the biggest thing that they can do is really taking ownership of where they are at in their current job and in their career. And to do that, let's think of it in terms of four f's. So this is an exercise I do with my coaching clients. And the four f's, the first one is fit. Do you fit in the company where you're currently employed? So fit would be things like, do you align with the company's mission and vision and purpose? Do you like the people whom you're serving every single day? If you're unemployed, you're then looking at companies where you think you would be a great employee for and their values align with yours. So the first thing is really assessing whether or not, you've got a great fit with your company. And if not identifying companies, that would be a potential fit for you, because those are the companies you're going to start researching and targeting in terms of applying or networking for that new position.
11:40
The second f is function. What are you good at? One of the things I love about this whole mid career dynamic is that while we all have gaps we need to close or we can work on in terms of our professional and skill development, the reality is the biggest value we add at mid career is because of our strengths. And so you need to be doing work that appeals and aligns directly with what you're good at. If you are an excel ninja, then you need to be like doing things and manipulating data and doing things with excel. That's going to be a value add to a particular company. Gary, I think it's fair enough to say we're probably not going to love 100% of everything we do in our jobs day to day, but we need to love most of it. And so that's where the function piece is really important. The last two really quickly are finance.
12:36
What are you compensated? What are you worth in the market? And is a company willing to give you that particular compensation? And then forward is. I always encourage my clients to think of two positions ahead. Whether it's within your organization or in another organization or company. When you go to make that move, you need to be thinking two steps ahead. Where does this job set me up for success? With the next two jobs after it. So walking through those four f's for fit, function, finance and forward will absolutely help you get some immediate return and get you the career clarity you need.
13:16
This really interesting tip. I love that because I often find that, well, I think this is true for humans. Like we, the way we move around is often just in survival. Right. And that's often how we relate to jobs. What am I getting paid right now? Like, how is this job taking care of me right now? But the idea of making moves and setting yourself up for two or three moves down the road, it's, it's a really interesting one because it would have you have a different type of awareness about how you're moving about and, and it would also prevent you from getting stuck.
13:53
Yeah, absolutely.
13:54
Or at least have an awareness that you might get stuck. Yeah, I love that. So let's talk about how you know, because you're not just changing yourself, your knees are changing, but very rapidly. The world is changing, the cultures are changing. So if you're mid career, you're probably dealing with a lot of. Of your colleagues being of different generations coming underneath. And that has got to be changing. Well, that has got to.
14:21
We know that that's changing the workplace. It's creating different types of challenges.
14:25
Sure.
14:26
What are you seeing out there in terms of how that's impacting mid level career folks and the decisions that they're making?
14:35
The thing that I want people to keep in mind is that just by its moniker alone, mid career means you're stuck in the middle. Right. And so you're going to be working with people who are younger than you and perhaps more skilled than you, and you're also going to be working with leaders and people who are either at titles above you that may or may not be older than you either. I remember one of the biggest shocks I had in my career was when I reported to somebody who was a year younger than me and thinking, okay, I got to build a relationship with this person. But admittedly, we kind of got off to a rocky start. And part of it was because I had to check myself in terms of my own attitudes about them in that particular role. Now, we ended up working fine for several years in that, but it is an opportunity to check in with yourself and be like, okay, what am I thinking and what am I feeling here?
15:40
Right.
15:40
And one of the things that we can really gain at mid career, especially when we're working with people across the age, the age gap, and as well as even working with people from different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities and things like that, is there's an opportunity to learn something. And especially when you're working with younger people in particular. And I've seen this over and over and over again with a younger professional who's just starting out. They want to be valued, and so they come in with all this information, they're trying to prove themselves, and they might even have a little bit of an edge to them that, admittedly may be a little off putting to you. I want you to take a step back and really consider, where is their motive? What's their motivation here? If they're just trying to help and they can help you with a particular skill or something, you can delegate to them, by all means, welcome that new opportunity to show up and learn from that for yourself as well as for other people. There's a wonderful colleague of mine, her name is Joe Miller, and she talks about different leadership shifts. And one of the things Joe talks about is taking people from a mindset of delegating to what she calls develegating and develagating is a hybrid word that she made up between delegating and development. So when we're working with someone and we want to expose them to a certain skill that eventually we can hand off to them, we don't just hand it off to them.
17:23
We hand hold them a little bit, and we take time to show them, to model, to teach, to train, to develop, to help them build their capacity. Because in the end, it's going to be a win win for everybody, a win for you, a win for them, a win for the organization. And now we're rooting our motives more in. How do we get to add more value rather than breaking that apart?
17:47
Yeah, I think one of the tension points is I feel like people that are in mid career, sort of closer to our age, there was this just idea of earning your dues that I think was part of our upbringing, part of our culture. Right? Like you, really. And maybe it was even like a baby boomer thing. They just got passed down. But there was this idea that you earned your keep, right? Like, you work hard and one day you'll get recognized and one day you get promoted, or all that hard work will pay off. But the younger kids now don't have that. They really come more from a leadership perspective, I think of, they've just been trained to always be vocal about their ideas, and, and there's a. I think coming up in the age of social media just creates a seat at the table automatically.
18:41
So the idea of them being very vocal from the beginning, wanting to participate in the, in the, in the decision making, and I think that that's kind of where the tension comes in sometimes, because we look at the young kids going like, hey, wait a minute. Like, I had to. I had to work ten years before I could have a seat at the table. That you're trying to have a seat at the table, it's like, hold on.
19:04
But it's, it's.
19:05
But they just also came up at a different. They came up differently than we did. And I think there's a beauty in that as well, that there's a self expression and freedom, and there's self expression. That can also be a gift, I think, if you embrace it. To your point.
19:21
Oh, without a doubt. And when I'm listening to you, Gary, what comes to mind is that, especially for younger people who have never known what it's been like to live without a smartphone, I've never known what it's like to live without social media. They have a voice. They are constantly finding ways to refine hone and perfect their voice, where for us as older professionals, we didn't have that, we didn't have that vehicle. So they're more accustomed to posting and engaging and putting their thoughts out there where a lot of us, and I'm not just saying younger professionals don't, but a lot of us at mid career or even older, we often have to battle imposter syndrome or perfectionism, that we hesitate in putting things out there because our biggest fear was whether or not we were going to speak up in a meeting or not. And younger people are coming in and they're like, oh yeah, I've just posted a bunch of things today and I've posted a video, and they get caught up in vanity metrics, I think a little bit too, which isn't always healthy, but they've honed their voice and that is an absolute gift when they know how to leverage that particular skill and talent in their particular organization.
20:39
Do their skill sets, have they changed the expectations for mid level career, or have they changed the requirements that mid level careers now have?
20:52
It's a very interesting talking point because we could answer that from both sides of the spectrum. And I think that is very dependent based upon an organization's culture, especially if you have a more traditional type organization, maybe not so much. But the thing where I often see mid career professionals feel like they lag behind is the comfort level of how they use social media. So, for example, a lot of mid career professionals and job seekers, job seekers in general, are going to have a LinkedIn profile. The varying degrees of how optimized their LinkedIn profiles are, from everything from what's the banner space being used behind their headshot, how good is their headshot, the headline, what they say in the about section, right on down to the quality and frequency of their recommendations. A lot of mid career professionals can feel like they're behind in the social media game because they're not. They haven't had to use it. They're not well versed.
22:07
I'll tell you a story. I was talking with someone who was a potential client. They reached out to me. We had an initial call, and they were very frustrated and upset that they were not getting any job offers. They would get off into a first or second round interview, but they never got the deal. And so I was asking them some questions about what they thought happened. And of course, everything in a lot of their opinion was great. I'm a great interviewer.
22:39
I'm very charismatic. This position probably went to someone internally. I never had a chance. Chance whether all of that is true or not is TBD, because we don't really know where all those positions went. But I asked them this one question. I said, could you tell me why on your LinkedIn profile you have received eight recommendations but have never given anyone a recommendation in your network? Their answer was, well, I have eight recommendations. I didn't feel I had to give any. I said, well, in my experience and in my network, what I will tell you is that a really good recruiter and an exceptional hiring manager will look at the entirety of your LinkedIn profile.
23:30
And when they come across someone like you that has eight recommendations, they're going to read those eight recommendations and they're going to scan them to see what are the common themes people say about you. And admittedly you have some good things there. Then theyre going to click on how many youve given and theyre going to see none. And theyre going to think youre a taker and theyre going to think youre a user and theyre going to think thats not somebody I want in my organization. Gary, there was dead silence on the phone and I just held space. I didnt say anything. And admittedly I think I ticked them off a little bit, which I'm not here to make friends. And they said to me, you have told me something that nobody has told me, and I don't know whether or not that's the thing that's holding me back, but if you're telling me that's a perception that I need to overcome, I need to do something about it.
24:28
And so we talked about how they could very easily give some recommendations to people that would optimize their LinkedIn profile a little bit better. So again, it's a mindset. How do mid career professionals leverage their social media versus what a younger professional does? There's a lot to be learned in terms of how younger people are leveraging social media right now.
24:55
I love that. That's such a good tip, by the way. I mean, if listen or if you should have written that one down, it's such a great tip. And I have never heard that anybody say that before either. So that's great.
25:07
Yeah.
25:07
And I think that that's kind of what I'm getting at, what I wanted to poke into because I do feel that it's interesting and I can, and I can share personally on this. So I, about six years ago, so I had my coaching practice I opened in 2008, then I did that for about seven years. And one of my corporate clients at the time offered me a job, limelife. And so I went to work for them, running their internal coaching and training department for a few years, and I put myself in a bubble. Like, I was not operating in social media or linked. Like, my LinkedIn profile did not get updated at all in five years. And I do think that that's a muscle that we don't have, right? That we, or we think about it in terms of when it got updated. It got updated when I got the job, and then it got updated when I was launching, relaunching my coaching practice and leaving after five and a half years.
26:01
So there is a way that the younger generation, I feel like, when I say that, I feel like I'm like 75. These youngins, there is a way that the younger generation does have a facility around this that for us has to be. I don't want to say forced, but gently pushed.
26:19
No, absolutely. But one of the things that you just said that, that I appreciate so much is such a common theme across so many mid career professionals, which is we get busy, we get wrapped up in our work. There is no shame in having a LinkedIn profile that you haven't updated in five years, because if anything, what it's going to say is you're busy and you're wrapped up in your work and your life. A lot of people only tap into LinkedIn when they're trying to grow their network or they're trying to find a new job. But one of the things we're offering people today is just an opportunity to go. If you were to spend 15 minutes a month on doing something on LinkedIn, what could you do? Yeah, only 4% of people who are on LinkedIn actively post. So that means 96% of people on LinkedIn are scrolling and lurking, maybe reacting or commenting. There is tremendous value in simply engaging with other people's posts, but we gotta make time for it.
27:27
So what I'd offer people today is what would it look like if you blocked off 15, 2030 minutes on your work calendar and you're like, I'm just gonna do something on LinkedIn, right? And you get busy and wrapped up in that 30 only becomes 15 minutes. You still honor the time, but it's a way for us to just as you, I loved what you said there about like, it's about working that muscle and being able to keep that muscle engaged and active. So we're not letting LinkedIn just kind of fall by the wayside.
28:01
Yeah. So since we're in the technology lane, I think the other boogeyman in the closet for a lot of mid level careers is the AI revolution that we're in. So first, are you seeing anything out there yet? Are you seeing any patterns? What's your take on this right now? And then it would be great to talk about how to prepare.
28:27
Sure.
28:28
Right.
28:29
Sure. If anybody out there is interviewing for a job, you absolutely must be prepared to answer a question about either how you have used any kind of AI technology or what your thoughts are about it. Right. Because if you're not answering either of those questions or that's being discussed, you are not staying current. AI is not going to go away. It's too big and too bold. It's not going to go away. But here's my thing.
28:59
AI is a tool. It is a tool much like we would use a software program, an app, a hammer, whatever it might be, it is a tool. And because it's a tool, it is only good as the people who use it. So one of the biggest mistakes I see people make in this job market right now, they will put a bunch of stuff into whatever AI of choice they want to use and they'll have it regurgitate a resume or they'll regurgitate a cover letter. Huge mistake. You have to put your human lens and your voice on it. I don't care how many times you ask AI to revise your cover letter in a certain tone. If you are not taking that generated text and making it sound like it's coming from you, that will be a huge turn off to any recruiter or hiring manager, and you will not get an interview.
30:01
That I can't emphasize enough that taking what chat GPT or any kind of AI tech is giving you and copying and pasting it solely into your documents is, is going to put you at risk right now. Are there advantages to AI? Absolutely. There are ways that it can improve some efficiency and make our life easier. It could be a great thought generator. It's also not 100% factually accurate. If you're asking it to spit out information, you better cross reference those facts and see whether or not that's actually true. AI is a tool. Make sure you use it accordingly, but don't let it be the be all and end all, especially if you are an active job seeker and trying to get that new job.
30:54
Yeah, and it sounds like the other takeaway is you have to learn how to use it.
30:59
Yeah, you do. I mean, look, AI is great to play around with. I keep a chat GPT window open and I'll occasionally go in and be like, I need some ideas for this or if it's, if it's something in my newsletter. And I'll be like, give me ten topics that mid career professionals are dealing with right now, and it'll be very general and we'll kind of refine it and stuff. But I've also used chat GPT to be like, I've got, I've got a quart of whipped cream, whipping cream. I've got some chocolate chips. I've got some pound cake and some fruit. Give me a recipe for four people.
31:35
Or like, give me a three ingredient dessert. I saw something on Good Morning America a few months ago, and it was like, I'm going to a work party function. I have a $100 budget. This is the attire. Tell me what I can buy for this event. And it not only spit out options, but it spit out the links for you to go buy that particular article of clothing. Can it save you some time? Sure, but you gotta know how to use it and the way you're gonna use it. There's a ton of training that's out there, but get familiar with it.
32:07
And if you're interviewing for a job and they say to you, hey, how have you used AI in your work or your life? You now have some very tangible examples to share with them that are going to help make your point even stronger about, you are technologically well versed and know how to appreciate it for the tool it is.
32:29
Yeah. What are you, do you have any thoughts about the automation of jobs, that it's coming and how that might impact people in their mid level careers?
32:41
Yeah. And I'm hearing from people both in my network and people who are reaching out to me that there is some genuine concern that their jobs may be eliminated. For example, when it comes to things like copywriting, that that is one like that, like writing ad copy. That's something that could not essentially wipe out an entire department, but could definitely reduce the number of people that are doing it. I think the larger picture here, though, Gary, is you're looking at the organization itself and where they're moving in terms of incorporating or leveraging any kind of AI technology. If they're going all into it, and you're looking around and you're seeing people on your Microsoft Teams, and you're seeing people, they're sitting next to you going, I don't know if we're all going to be here in a year. You are 100% responsible for your career. Figure out your brand and your reputation within that company.
33:39
Have the difficult or intentional conversations to talk about what your future is within that company. Continually showcase your value and where you're continually adding value to that company. But there is no doubt that AI, in my opinion, is going to impact the job market. I also wonder if we will see the pendulum swing back a little bit. So it's still a lot of to be determined. But one of the, one of the biggest lessons I learned early on in my career, if you are uncertain about where you're at within that company, have an intentional conversation with your leadership. If you have every intention of staying. Absolutely.
34:25
Find ways to continually add value. Be it, be on the cutting edge of things. Continually add value so that your leadership recognizes that they want you there, because it's just, it's going to be really interesting to see what happens over the next few years. Without a doubt.
34:41
Yeah. And I think the, what you're really pointing to as well is where, where are the areas where you can't compete or AI can't compete with you. Right. Like, at the end of the day, they can't be human.
34:54
Right.
34:55
So you going in and having those conversations, creating those relationships, creating the, finding the shared interests, and continuing to create value for the company, those are things that AI can't do. So you can definitely have an advantage there. And I think something to be said as well is at this point, you have a certain experience, and leaning into that experience is, I think it's also gonna be valuable that you have been around the block a few times, you've learned a couple of tricks, and especially when it comes to leadership and their interpersonal relationships, I think those are things that we definitely have to lean in heavily because AI can't touch those. Right.
35:44
And when we think about how technology emerges and develops, we had grandparents who never knew it was possible to get on an airplane and fly across country, right?
35:58
I'm looking at the rotary phone. I'm like, I remember going to, you.
36:02
Had to text, and if you want to text the letter c, you had to press that number two button three times. Three times. What a pain in the butt that was. And so now we hit a voice button and we talk into our phone, and it dictates stuff for us. Technology advances in ways that we hope is always for good. Sadly, it's not always for good because there are evil people out there that will do bad things with it, but it advances things in so many ways. So 20 years ago when we were like, what the heck is this Internet thing? But why do I have to keep dialing up? And now we just have instant connectivity what's 20 years from now going to look like in terms of AI and how are we adapting to it?
36:44
Yeah.
36:47
Okay.
36:47
Great convo. I think the last thing I want to talk about is very often when we get to our age, you're thinking not just about changing jobs, but you're also thinking about, do you want to make a career change? Like, are you fulfilled by what you're doing? And I think it's scary because you've built a certain resume doing what you've been doing for the last 20 years, and now it's time to figure out how to take that resume and make it relevant for possibly a different career. And I think there's also a concern about, well, in this lane, mid to senior level. Now, if I go into a different lane, I might be starting out again and it might be more junior, which I think is also an obstacle for people, especially on the financial end. So can we, like, let's dive into this a little bit. And let's start with if someone is finding themselves looking to make a career change at this stage of the game, what advice do you have for them and how can we take some of our previous experience and make it relevant in this new career path?
38:04
So im going to share three things here. So the first is identify what your transferable and translatable skills are. So the things that youve excelled at in your current role or within your current industry, where do they transfer and translate into your pivot? So how can you take those skills and essentially layer them on top of what this new role in this pivot may be? The second thing is you must know how to tell your story. One of the things that I have seen, and we've all seen in general after the pandemic, is people are reevaluating how they live and how they work. Making a career pivot in light of what happened in March of 2020 is a completely different ballgame than what it was before March of 2020. And by that, I mean it's not uncommon to see people pivoting. But you've got to know how to tell your story. There's a reason, there's a why.
39:06
And in that, it brings me to the third point, is that your story must be anchored in evidence and results. And by that, I mean, what are you going to do for this new company in your career pivot that's going to immediately get them a win in the first 30, 60, 90 or 180 days? So companies right now, they want to know what you've done, but they want to know what you're going to do for them as soon as you get hired. They want more results. When I work with people and I'll ask them, tell me three things that make you stand out. And they'll go, I'm a hard worker, I'm a team player, and I'm a great communicator. And I go, yeah, nobody cares about that. Nobody cares. That doesn't make you stand out at all.
39:54
Tell me about a time when you had to work so hard you refused to give up on that particular project or client to make it successful. Tell me about a time when you've had to redevelop your communication skills or build better communication channels with people who weren't always on your side. Tell me about a time when you've driven such incredible results. That's going to make me want to sit up and take notice. The game changer in making the pivot is not about people finding you interesting, because we're all interesting people. It's about a hiring manager or a recruiter getting interested in who you are, what you do, and what you're going to do for them. And if you think about those particular strategies in making your career pivot, you will have a much easier time getting past the first round interview. And then as you go to second, 3rd or even subsequent interviews after that, you're going to gain information about how it is for you in making that pivot.
41:08
And the last thing I'll offer here, Gary, when we were younger, we did a lot of informational interviews. We kind of forgot how to do them as we got older and at mid career. I want to offer people today that having an opportunity to do an informational interview with someone in your network to learn about them and what they're doing and ask questions about how you're navigating your career pivot can absolutely be helpful when you ask these two questions at the end of that informational interview. Number one, if you were in my shoes, what would you suggest or recommend? And secondly, who else should I be speaking to? And when you're done with that interview and you've gotten all that information, you thank them. And you can thank them by endorsing them on for some skills on LinkedIn, sending them a nice thank you email, you want to throw them a five or ten dollar gift card to go get a cup of coffee, you can do that as well. One of the best ways to thank them is flip the tables on them and say thank you so much for your time. Who's somebody I can connect you to that you'd like to meet in my network.
42:13
Yeah, I love that. And sometimes mid level people want to make a change, but they don't know what the change is. Right. They might not because I feel like the advice you just gave is really strategic in that you're trying to, if you know where you want to go. Right. What advice do you have for people that know that a change needs to come, but they're not necessarily sure of, like, what options they have? What's like. I can think of a few people in mind right now.
42:45
Yeah. I mean, it's one of the things where hiring a coach can be extremely helpful. But admittedly, not everybody may have the budget for it. Right. So think about how you can consume some content, right? You've got LinkedIn, you have YouTube. There's, I've got a free resource on my website you can come in and get. There's a lot of free things that are out there to at least start feeling like you're getting fed in terms of figuring out what that next step is going to be. I saw something recently and the person posted, if you want to have a lack of clarity about making a decision, ask everyone what you should do.
43:29
Right.
43:29
So if you're going to, if you're going to tap into your network and admittedly, like families and spouses and, and dear friends and stuff, they're a little close and they might subject their own bias into what they think your decision should be. If you're going to engage your network, be very intentional about who are the people you want to ask for that kind of advice and guidance before you start engaging anybody else. I'm always going to consult with my spouse on big decisions and little decisions. But, but I also know that there's a closeness that's there. And sometimes in order for me to make the most informed decision, I'm going to get some information first before I bring that back. So there's a lot of options.
44:18
Love that. Well, thank you so much, John. It's been lovely to have you on the show. You've given the listeners so many great tips. Before we go, do you have any resources that you wanted to share, any gifts that you wanted to share with our listeners?
44:35
Yeah, absolutely. So, Gary, thanks for the conversation, all the great questions you asked. I really appreciate it. So if anybody's listening out there and they want some free resources and help to help them navigate what their next step is at mid career, you can go to my [email protected]. J o h n n e r a l right there on my website, either on the homepage or under the resources tab. I've got a free mid career job seekers checklist you can download for all the things you can do to help you navigate your next job search. I also have a free email newsletter community that you're welcome to join. I send out emails twice a week specifically related to various leadership and career topics.
45:21
I want to invite people to listen to my podcast. It's called the Mid Career GPS podcast with over 240 episodes. There's a ton of topics out there to help you build your mid career gps to whatever's next. I've got a couple books on Amazon you can check out as well. And by all means reach out to me. Connect with me on LinkedIn and when you send me that connection request. Just mentioned that you heard my conversation with Gary here on the ownership game, so I know where that's coming from and we'll get a chance to connect and learn more about each other too. So thanks.
45:54
Fantastic. We'll be sure to include links to all those goodies in the show notes. If you didn't catch that, you can also get it from there. All right, my friend, it was such a pleasure having you. Thank you so much. I hope that we get to do this again.
46:08
I hope so too, Gary, thanks for what you do. I really appreciate you. Take care.
46:12
My pleasure, brother, my pleasure. Take care. I think making career moves can often make us feel vulnerable. But the thing I want you to remember is there's a lot of value in being mid career. You have some experience under your belt. You've been around the block a few times now. You've learned a thing or two about yourself and about working with others. This is really valuable experience that just can't be taught in school or can't be learned from an AI model.
46:42
But the thing you have to remember about experience is that it can also make us comfortable. Afraid to take new risks, apprehensive to listen to what a new, younger colleague may have to offer offer, or just reluctant to dip your foot in the new AI world under any circumstance, leaning into that comfort would be a mistake. Remember, you still have plenty of game left. Nowadays, it's not uncommon to make several career changes in one's lifetimes. But these changes can happen to you because you had no choice in the matter. Or they can be orchestrated, they can be led. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter. But that requires you to get in ownership and start to implement some of the advice that John and I have given you in this episode.
47:29
The trick is to think ahead and think about the direction that you really want to head in, and then just focus on taking small steps along the way to prepare you. I want to give a special thanks to our guest, John Norell. You can find all the links to get in touch with him in the show notes. As always, thank you for joining us this week. Please don't forget to share the episode with someone that you think could benefit from the advice, and I'll see you next week.
47:58
Thanks for listening to this episode of the ownership game with your host, Gary Montalvo. Make sure to like and comment on your favorite podcast platform, as well as subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Our channel.